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News and Views from Menifee Valley, California |
by Steve
8/14/2008 10:39:00 AM
I was watching the U tube video on the new Menifee city council meeting. I was really shocked that they included a prayer. Are we going to be a city or a local club! I believe that if we are a bonified city - we should have separation of church & state. No prayer can cover all the beliefs of the new citizens of Menifee. I have been to other cities council meetings - and they do not pray.Here's my take on this...
The new city council should respect the beliefs of all the citizens of Menifee and omit the prayer.
Labels: City-Council
Keep the prayer in
By 
, at August 14, 2008 10:56 AM
I agree. Let him pray to whom ever he believes to be god. If you think he's praying to an imaginary friend, is that really going to hurt you?
By , at August 14, 2008 11:20 AM
Personally I believe that we are going to need all the prayers, best wishes, hopes and dreams we can muster up for the times ahead of us as a city. I say...."It can't hurt" !! God bless us...everyone !
By , at August 14, 2008 11:36 AM
Prayer should NEVER be brought into a government setting. EVER. I'm shocked that you think it is ok. People can believe whatever they choose, but it should not be brought into a city meeting.
By , at August 14, 2008 12:34 PM
Thanks for pointing out what so many don't know: "Separation of Church and State" doesn't mean we can't have any prayers or references to religion in a civic setting. The City of Menifee isn't endorsing a state religion.
I agree with you completely on all counts.
By , at August 14, 2008 1:00 PM
One Nation Under GOD! In GOD We Trust! AMEN!!!
Maybe this is something we need alittle more of, and by all means, if you don't like it, LEAVE. Don't be afraid to post your name, instead of posting as anonymous either.
P.s. I add you into my prayers tonight, whatever your name is....
By , at August 14, 2008 1:03 PM
One Nation Under GOD! In GOD We Trust! AMEN!!!
Maybe this is something we need alittle more of, and by all means, if you don't like it, LEAVE. Don't be afraid to post your name, instead of posting as anonymous either.
P.s. I"ll add you into my prayers tonight, whatever your name is....
By , at August 14, 2008 1:04 PM
Courts have found that the principle of a "religious liberty" exists behind in the First Amendment, even if those words are not actually there:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...
The point of such an amendment is twofold. First, it ensures that religious beliefs - private or organized - are removed from attempted government control. This is the reason why the government cannot tell either you or your church what to believe or to teach. Second, it ensures that the government does not get involved with enforcing, mandating, or promoting particular religious doctrines. This is what happens when the government "establishes" a church - and because doing so created so many problems in Europe, the authors of the Constitution wanted to try and prevent the same from happening here.
Can anyone deny that the First Amendment guarantees the principle of religious liberty, even though those words do not appear there? Similarly, the First Amendment guarantees the principle of the separation of church and state - by implication, because separating church and state is what allows religious liberty to exist.
If Mr. Denver continues to recite prayers, non-denominational or not, one person will sue and the city will have to spend money in a losing battle. The courts have stated the legitimacy of the "Separation of church and state" and we need to wake up and stop being brainwashed by our religious beliefs. The city does not have the money to support a lawsuit that WILL come, and that the city WILL lose. The prayer is inappropriate and should be stopped. I, along with many others, did not vote for cityhood so that our city council could make fools of themselves, by not understanding laws. If our council does not understand the basics of our country's laws, then We, as a community, may have something to worry about.
By , at August 14, 2008 1:41 PM
It's a little inappropriate to say the least.
Michelle, perhaps you should practice a little of what you preach and lose the tired "If you don't like it you should leave" bit. It's not so Christian-like. I'll pray for you and your tolerance levels tonight in my bedroom.
Sincerely,
Anonymous
By , at August 14, 2008 1:54 PM
I agree with the poster that brought up "one nation, under God". Our children say the pledge EVERYDAY at school, in which these words are spoken. Is that wrong also? If he is preaching his religious beliefs, I might have a different opinion.
To anonymous August 14 11:20am- you hit the nail on the head! Who really cares if the guy is saying a prayer to little purple people! If you believe in a "higher power" any prayer could be used how you individually want to use it. What's the hurt?...Unless you're an atheist :)
By 
ChattyCathy, at August 14, 2008 2:01 PM
I personally do not have a problem with the prayer before the meetings. But, I recognize there will be a time where other religous entities will ask for their share of the time before meetings to administer their own prayer. This could evolve into issue in the very near future.
By , at August 14, 2008 2:15 PM
Wow Michelle that sure isn't very Christian of you now is it? Tisk. Tisk.
By , at August 14, 2008 2:30 PM
Michelle maybe instead of telling me to leave you should put your big girl pants on and calm down. I'm entitled to my opinion as much as you, and I'm not telling you to leave.
By , at August 14, 2008 2:31 PM
There you libs go again preaching tolerance. It's funny how if they don't like something they don't have to be tolerate but if something offends them(libs) they throw that tolerance word around. Michelle I agree with you. Maybe people should stand up and take a look around and see that the country as a whole has thrown GOD under the bus and look where it has gotten us. I am so sick of living in a PC society. There are things that bother me when we are out in public or at different functions but I am not rude and say I am offended I go with the flow and then when it is appropriate we tell our children what we believe and let them make the choice. So if he would like to pray then by all means pray. Just one last point when a certain senator used the Koran to swear in you didn't here the left saying there should be seperation of church and state. No it was the exact opposite, praising him for using the 1st admendment. I agree that both sides will use things to there advantage but it seems to me the LIBS use it more often than not. So when I attented that Chargers game and the players are praying before a game I will be right there with them as well as with Mr. Denver.
By , at August 14, 2008 2:35 PM
First, Moreno Valley does a prayer before every City Council meeting so if anyone needs a legal opinion I'm sure they've probably vetted it.
Second, the reason why the nonreligious people have to post anonymously is because the town's bible thumpers can't stand having agnostics or, horrors, atheists in their midst. And save your prayers, we don't need them thanks.
By , at August 14, 2008 3:28 PM
There is nothing wrong with prayer, but it is a personal choice and should be done in church, religious institution, or home. I personally don't care what M.V. does or does not do. The City Council meetings are the wrong place for prayers. As a previous poster stated, it will take a substanial amount of our tax dollars to fight a lawsuit, which the city will lose. As a Christian I am embarrassed by how the fringe, yet vocal, side of our religion seem to believe that religion should be everywhere. Lack of religion isn't what is wrong with our society. Electing the wrong politicians and lacking responsibility, plus common sense, hurts our society more than a lack of Christianity. As for those of you who use the Pledge as evidence, the "under god" part of the Pledge, added in the 1950's, will go before the Supreme Court soon, and most legal scholars believe the phrase will be thrown out.
By , at August 14, 2008 4:05 PM
I believe that instead of prayer we should all sing the Anthem of Menifee before each meeting. Maybe we could start a blog to write this Anthem. Or.... maybe we could ask that the council members speak in tongues whilst dancing with snakes for the first 10 mins of each meeting? Much more entertaining.
By , at August 14, 2008 4:50 PM
Post a comment? Yes, I'd love to!
First of all I'd like to say that I respect (and God respects) everyone's right to an opinion, however, remember that your opinion does not equal truth, necessarily. Just because you believe something doesn't make it "true for you". If you can't see that, don't bother reading the rest of my post.
Respectfully, (and with much tolerance) those of you who don't think prayer belongs in government are living in the wrong country. You should check out some of our nation's founding documents and the quotes and speeches of our leaders from the last 500 years or so since this nation has been in existence, whether it be in colonial or federal form. It's only recently that we've decided to be a publicly secular nation. You might be more comfortable in a communist country like Cuba or China, though I hear even there, they are "tolerant" of a state-run church, but it has the fabled "separation" you desire.
Regarding political correctness, it's a disease that results in a watering down of everything into a gray lukewarm mess that is ripe for invasion or overthrow by hostile enemies. The more you suppress you convictions, the weaker you become in character and leadership. Just look at the presidential candidate on the left (for example), he's not a flip-flopper, he's on EVERY side of most issues, depending on who he's talking to, or who he thinks is listening.
The God who created us is the only God who deserves our prayers, worship and honor. I suggest we go back to the beginning and find out who the men that forged this great nation thought that was...
Atheism is a cop-out at best, and a poor excuse to make yourself a "god" at worst, but I respect the fact that many of you who think you're atheists are still alive, and so you still have a chance to become un-atheist. Two words, "Irreducible Complexity". ;)
Those of you who call yourselves "agnostics" should go back and look up the origin of that word. You might be surprised, but make sure you don't use a "PC" dictionary. :D
We need THE God in America again. Note the "definite article".
Yes, I'd love to make a comment!
By , at August 14, 2008 7:37 PM
Jeff,
You need to go back and study history. Many of the Framers of our country, including Jefferson, were deists. They also believed that God should stay out of government, just as government should stay out of religion. I am so sick of so-called "Christians" trying to force everyone to believe what they believe. As a Christian, I would like others to stop making fools of us by claiming historical inaccuracies. We were not created as a Christian nation, nor should we be now. Be a Christian, love God, but don't have the absolute gall to try and force others to believe what you believe. Religion doesn't belong in politics, at a federal or local level.
By , at August 14, 2008 9:38 PM
Prayer at a goverment sponsered gathering is like being exposed to second hand smoke...
By , at August 14, 2008 10:04 PM
Mark, I can agree with you that government should not endorse any specific religion, but let's not mix government bodies with elected officials. Elected officials are American citizens with First Amendment rights. As I said in the article, the city council as a whole did not vote to endorse Denver's prayers. If they had, then it would be a clear violation of the First Amendment.
As for our Framers, they didn't specifically write verbage into the Constitution allowing elected officials to pray in a civic setting, but then again, they didn't specifically prohibit it either.
By Steve, at August 14, 2008 11:02 PM
Steve, read the first amendment.
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances".
All major courts have agreed that the 1st Amendment prohibits Any public entity from endorsing any religion, through prayer or otherwise. It does not matter that Mr. Denver is the only one promoting it or that the council voted as a whole or not, it is a governmental proceeding and prayer of any kind is forbidden. The council is there to serve our community, and the council chambers are not a religious dwelling. Mr. Denver is more than welcome to pray during Sunday mass, but he should not be praying during a public forum. People can try to sugar coat the issue, but it is legally wrong, whether you agree or not.
By , at August 15, 2008 12:16 AM
Well, since prayer is just fine to most of you, then it must also be fine to attend and burn bible pages, pledge support for little green men, and perform satanic rituals.
By , at August 15, 2008 5:43 AM
Wow, I had no idea (until now) of the level of nastiness and pettiness of folks in this area, or at least ones who post on this board. I don't understand how Anonymous August 15, 2008 5:43 AM's comment "to attend and burn bible pages, pledge support for little green men, and perform satanic rituals" has any relationship with saying a little prayer.
Can't we all just get along?
By , at August 15, 2008 6:55 AM
To Lynn and everyone else that thinks it is just a little prayer...I believe you are missing the point.It sounds like you think it is ok because he is praying to YOUR God. If he was praying to a demon or Vishnu or Tom Cruise you might think it was inappropriate. As a previous poster said this could get out of hand real quick.
By , at August 15, 2008 7:47 AM
I found the prayer to be quite refreshing...and its so sad that people can be so nasty about such simple thing...and go to such extremes like some of the anonymous posters.
I too am so tired of being PC because being "correct" changes so much, depending on who is in office and what the latest buzz word is. Being PC just depends on what decade we are in.
That said, I know what happened down in Vista, because two of the school board members dared to say PRIVATE prayers before meetings...people like anonymous raised a big stink, and recalled them, even though they did a terrific job, the school district actually had surplus reserve funds when they left.
Perhaps a moment of silence?
By Dani, at August 15, 2008 8:27 AM
What church denomination is councilman Denver trying to promote?
By , at August 15, 2008 8:29 AM
There is no point trying to have rational discussions with people that want to interject religiosity into government. Church will never be enough for them. For me the question is haven't we all had enough of this mentality? Does anyone know what our recourse is to nip this Anti-American behavior in the bud?
By , at August 15, 2008 8:53 AM
All:
Our United States Senate has been opened with prayer since the beginning.
Barry Black is the official Chaplain of the Senate, and opens the Senate with prayer each day.
http://www.senate.gov/reference/office/chaplain.htm
Every President has been sworn in on a Bible.
The bill of rights does not say "freedom FROM religion", only against the government establishing and enforcing a state sancitioned religion through force.
It is very appropriate that Menifee council sessions are opened with prayer.
Bill Lussenheide
Candidate US Congress-CA 49 2010
http://www.FaithFamilyFreedoms.blogspot.com
By Bill Lussenheide, at August 15, 2008 9:17 AM
The United States House of Representatives opens each day with a prayer also. The chaplain of the house has a webpage:
http://chaplain.house.gov
Seems to me that if our elected officials in the federal government see no harm in opening with a prayer, then neither should local governments or their constituents.
By , at August 15, 2008 9:56 AM
For goodness sakes - just the mention of prayer and here goes the bloggers on a rampage. Shame on anyone who is annoyed by a prayer; these same ones are quick to get every prayer possible said on their behalf if they think their life is threatened! Thank you John Denver - stand up and continue the prayer; our new city needs all the help it can get. LOOK what's happened in the school since they removed all prayer!
By , at August 15, 2008 10:28 AM
I Think the candidate for Congress. Needs to go back and learn the law before posting. Almost every court has upheld that public forums are no place for religious beliefs. The vast majority of Christians understand that their religious beliefs are not everyones beliefs and that religion is a private issue. Unfortunately we do have a healthy dose of Evangelicals amongst others who want to force their beliefs onto others. If you truly believe it is ok for prayer to be said at the council meeting or any other public forum, then you should not be a congressman. By the way, each individual President is given a choice as to what book they swear their oath on from the Bible, to the Koran, or no book if the candidate would happen to be Agnostic or Atheist. In 2007, When they were to have a Hindu prayer spoken, so-called "Christians" protested. Apparently only "Christian" prayer is allowed in some peoples minds. Finally, just because some of our government entities use religous prayer to open , does not mean it is right. It just hasn't been teted in court yet. And since the Evangelicals are a huge voting block, the chance of a Congressman or Senator having the courage to stand up for what is right is slim to none. I have faith and I live by my faith, but I also value the ideas layed down by our forefathers. Religion and faith are great things, but they do not belong in public settings. Not now, not ever.
By , at August 15, 2008 10:47 AM
I think it's great they are having prayer at the City Council Meetings. I do respect those who don't pray. But, Please don't take anything else away from our freedoms.
Don't tell us what we an and can't do in public.
We ALL need to be respectful of each other's beliefs and non-beliefs.
By , at August 15, 2008 11:55 AM
How can you "shame" people who don't believe as you do? How is that right?
By , at August 15, 2008 12:36 PM
Respectfully, to Mark,
As a Christian, I don't try to 'force everyone to believe' what I believe. That's just ludicrous. You can't force anyone to believe anything, though there are lots of religions around the world that try to force people to do what they want them to do. In contrast, Christ has freed us to live for Him, to Honor God, to obey His word, and to get people saved by delivering the message of the cross and what Jesus' death means. Basically, Christians are here as ambassadors of Christ, and we need to represent.
Anyway, if you want to rail against people who are "forcing" people to believe things, you might try going and living in another country and see how real Christians live over there. Sudan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, India, China, and Indonesia are all examples of countries whose governments force people to "believe" they way they want them to. If they don't, they get "persecution". Most of the countries I named are Islamic Regimes that kill and torture people who don't believe as they do, but there are militant radicals in all religions, including Buddhists, Hindus and yes, even so-called Christians.
By the way, isn't our government telling us to believe by preaching its message of tolerance and political correctness through the public schools and such and passing laws and hindering free speech?
Stop complaining about how a little prayer is somehow "forcing" someone to believe something and start being thankful that God still works in the affairs of men in spite of the way we've been treating Him lately. God is long-suffering, but eventually, He will just leave us to our own, and that's when all hell will break loose. Better to call on Him while he is NEAR.
By , at August 16, 2008 12:48 AM
Jeff, with all due respect, stop preaching to people. You have very little knowledge of "world" religions or the history of Christianity. The fact is, in the eyes of the law, religion is a personal decision and should not be accepted in any public setting. To science,it is a story, an idea created by man to add a "meaning" to life. Faith can not be proven. Don't act as though Christians are all peaceful, following the words of God. Many "Christians" are as ignorant and as hatefilled as their "Islamic" brethern. The vast majority of Muslims are as peaceful as most Christians. You, amongst others, are trying to get people to follow your beliefs. No, Christians, in America, are not being persecuted, or having their freedoms controlled. A certain segment of Christians are paranoid and believe everyone is out to get them. God gave us a brain, it would be nice if we all used the brain to think. Christian extremists will always argue that God belongs everywhere. They falsely believe that America wass created as a Christian nation. Prayer before council meetings is inappropriate, regardless of what many of the so-called "Christians" claim. I believe in God, and I live by the teachings of Christ. I also use the brain God gave me to think, and analyze. I don't believe God should be banished, but I also know that God, in any form, does not belong in politics.
By , at August 16, 2008 8:46 AM
This is a free country. So if I ride down your block one night on my Harley, and happen to make enough noise to wake up your sick child just after you workded so hard to get her to fall asleep, then that's just your tough luck. Why should I care about what you think?
By , at August 16, 2008 5:14 PM
Religion, hypocrisy, extremism, violence, war etc. etc. etc.
By , at August 16, 2008 5:23 PM
Anonymous at 5:14pm: You obviously aren't the brightest bulb, but I will try to explain. If your trendy Harley can be heard from more than 50 ft, it is illegal. Now most law enforcement and citizens don't care that much because most people are repectful. You are a sad person who feels more manley waking up sick children. I gues Freud was right. Some men do make up for other inadequacies by buying big trucks, sport cars, and Harleys. You are proof of it.
By , at August 16, 2008 7:39 PM
"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God." John Adams, signer of the Declaration of Independence
"I do not believe that the Constitution was the offspring of inspiration, but I am as satisfied that it is as much the work of a Divine Providence as any of the miracles recorded in the Old and New Testament." Benjamin Rush, signer of the Declaration of Independence..
"We've staked the whole future of American civilization not on the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of each and all of us, to govern ourselves according to the commandments of God. The future and success of America is not in this Constitution, but in the laws of God upon which this Constitution is founded.” James Madison, father of our Constitution.
By Dani, at August 16, 2008 8:37 PM
I think it's funny how closed minded some "Christians" are. One call to the ACLU and this is the next segment on the Hanity & Colmes show. Mellow out people. You know if it was a small town in Alabama we would all be ok with it, but this is the whopper soon to be Menifee with aspirations of greatness and prosperity. Therefore, let us pray on our own time not using our government to guide us prayer. Denver is a councilman not a priest or a pastor or shawman, etc. I don't go to meetings to become spiritually motivated by a councilman, I want to discuss politics not religion.Keep your faith and beliefs to yourself/family and to those that want to share.No one is losing any rights by asking Denver to not pray at meetings. They are simply saying it has absolutely nothing to do with the council as a governing entity. S.O.M.
By , at August 16, 2008 10:09 PM
City Council meetings are not the place for prayer. If you want to pray, go to church. Keep the meetings professional!!!
By , at August 16, 2008 11:19 PM
If you don't like the prayer don't bow your head, just practice keeping your mouth shut for a minute and show a little respect (hard for some people). I'm sure most, If not all of you against prayer don't mind voicing your opinions and the rest of us have to listen to them. Of course If you would keep your mouths shut and your opinions to yourselves, then there wouldn't be any reason for the rest of us to pray.
By , at August 17, 2008 3:19 AM
Need an example of Christian nastiness? Here it is:
f you don't like the prayer don't bow your head, just practice keeping your mouth shut for a minute and show a little respect (hard for some people). I'm sure most, If not all of you against prayer don't mind voicing your opinions and the rest of us have to listen to them. Of course If you would keep your mouths shut and your opinions to yourselves, then there wouldn't be any reason for the rest of us to pray.
By , at August 17, 2008 10:42 AM
Yeah isn't that a good one?
I love the one about how having an opinion is the reason why people need to pray.
By , at August 17, 2008 11:03 AM
WOW, I can't believe how petty and nasty this whole thing has gotten.
Even if you don't believe in God doesn't mean he doesn't exist and even if you don't pray doesn't mean it doesn't work. God will bless Denver because he admitted he can't do this on his own. I for one ,hope that the others can ask for help too. Man has tried to do everything on his own and look where this nation has gone. I just pray that Denver continues to pray and asks for guidance in building this new city.
By Babe, at August 17, 2008 2:37 PM
Ok Bible Thumpers, you gonna loose this one. As a City elected official he can not impose his personal beliefs on others. He has every right to silent prayer but not when he Unites others in that belief. I think prayer is important inall that I do, but I let my actions speak louder than a symbol. If John Denver is praying openly, that means something is truly brewing on his heels and he needs it. I am Bible believer and it says Paraphrased "Do not pray like the hypocrites for they do it to be seen."
Bring back prayer in the schools, they do it at MUSD already, they even bring in a local Pastor. I have a problem with convenient pray, or prayer to establish your on beliefs. You will spend countless dollars fighting this because as In God We Trust, The Legal system does not agree.
Good Luck and God Bless
By , at August 17, 2008 2:54 PM
Yes, Mark, I am trying to get people to believe as I do, because my faith is worth sharing, my country is worth saving, and what people think about me is not more important as what God has called me to do.
If you (or anyone else) would like to further discuss the topic of what is the appropriate approach to living out our faith, and the role of the believer in society, please email me directly.
Regarding prayer, the fact is, if we, as a nation don't honor our Creator, we will be reduced to a captive people, governed by man's rules, opinions and whims, and our freedom, which our founders stated comes from God, and not any governing body, will be diminished. It's already happening.
Look around the world and see how countries whose God is not the LORD fare. The United States an extraordinary exception because we, until recently have publicly acknowledged God. See how nations with Judeo/Christian roots have been blessed. See how some of those nations are also now declining.
Our Creator has revealed Himself in the Bible and through the Person of Jesus Christ, and has continually worked through believers to affect His will in the world since the events recorded in the book of Acts. Praying and asking Him to intervene and guide our public forums and political decisions is not religion, it's a matter of national security and a matter of survival for our nation as we have known it. If we don't acknowledge Him, we are left to our own devices, our own understanding, and that will eventually lead to our destruction as a nation.
That nation is blessed, whose God is the LORD.
Thank you, Dani, for those quotes, and they are merely a few in a vast library of evidence of the faith of our fathers.
By , at August 17, 2008 3:14 PM
A friendly warning to the guy with the Harley:
It is because of attitudes like yours that we are continually encumbered with more and more rules, restrictions and regulations by government authorities.
Because you have no regard for other people, and because it is now the government's job to provide a peaceful atmosphere for the citizens, the government's obligation is to try to out-weigh your personal freedom with a law that would dissuade you from doing what would cause discomfort to the citizens of my street.
In other words, because you choose to be a self-centered jackass, they enact rules to try to make you stop. If you still don't stop, they make the rules tougher and tougher until the risk of getting caught outweighs your desire to be a self-centered jackass.
If you tried your little stunt 150 years ago, someone would just come out and shoot you right off your horse, and the problem would stop right there.
Today, it's getting to the point where people are tired of your kind, and since the police/sheriffs can't always be around, someone might decide they've had enough, and you'd go down. Then I'm sure you'd be wishing someone would pray for you.
Here's the solution: Stop being a self-centered jackass. Think of it as self-preservation: Some of your neighbors own guns, and they may just have had enough of your kind so that the desire to put you down outweigh the risk of getting caught.
By , at August 17, 2008 3:39 PM
i AM GLAD THAT THE RESPONSES WERE AS THEY WHERE. Too many liberal, mentaly thin ideas have made it into common practice over the years. The young these day's have no respect for authority, civil or a much higher one. No self identity or sense of purpose or our history. In a lot of instances they don't even respect their parents! Much of this is due to economic necesity at the home level. I know many will ask "what are you smokeing?", but for one. I would like to see many of the older way's of educating our kids ( includes American and world history), as well as disciplinning them.
By , at August 17, 2008 4:02 PM
Christian "nastiness":
1. The act, on the part of a Christian (follower of Jesus Christ), of saying or doing something that world can use as evidence that you're not perfect, and that can also be used as excuse to dismiss out of hand the opinions, thoughts or arguments of the perpetrator, or for that matter, the teachings of Christ Himself, without a second thought.
2. Anything a Christian says or does that resembles a non-believer's own behavior, yet, because of the Christians' status as a Christian, is labeled 'nasty' for the reasons stated in definition 1.
Hint to Christians: don't give them a reason to call you 'nasty', let them make these allegations based on their own pretense. ;)
By , at August 17, 2008 4:02 PM
Jeff, spare me the praching. I am glad you have faith, but your faith is your faith. You have no right, or business, preaching your word to anyone. Faith is personal, and needs to stay personal. Christianity has done good, but to try and claim that Christianity has a peaceful record historically, is ludicrous. Your faith is not the only faith, and prayer of any kind isn't appropriate. And by the way, all of you claiming that Christians are persecuted and having their rights violated, give me a break. Your rights aren't being violated and nobody is persecuting you. You are all just being small-minded. I love God, but many "Christians' are the most close-minded, ignorant, and judgemental people in our society. So many of you preach about Jesus, but you know so little about his true message. Many of you are nothing like your Lord.
By , at August 17, 2008 8:06 PM
To all of you who think that a lack of God is what has caused societies ills, wake up. It isn't a lack of faith, it is a lack in judgement. We elect indivuals who cut funding to the poor and needy, we fail to fund programs that would educate and strengthen the youth, and we don't provide enogh opportunity or education on social skills and social responsibility. Don't look to faith for your answers, look at yourselves and the decisions you make.
By , at August 17, 2008 8:11 PM
Mark said: "You have no right, or business, preaching your word to anyone."
While it is tempting to further address the error in Mark's worldview concerning Christ's teachings and the nature of persecution in the world, I dare not respond except with this:
Last I checked, Mark, as a citizen of the United States of America, my speech is protected by the First Amendment; but have you some new law you've discovered or would like to impose that would make speech such as mine exempt from such protection?
More important than that, Mark, I have a right because Jesus Christ gave me the right, and has called me to obey His word, and to preach the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ on our behalf! This isn't 'my' word, Mark, it's God's word, which was once for all delivered to the saints at the beginning. It is the historical message of the church, the same message preached by the apostles and prophets.
He's called me to love my neighbor as myself, and to love God supremely. I obey because He is my King, Lord and Savior and he saved me from eternal damnation in hell precisely because I am so not like him.
Salvation is through Christ alone: there is no other name given by which we can be saved. No other 'religion' guarantees eternal life based solely upon our faith in the work of a Savior who died the death we all deserve because of our rebellion against our loving Creator. What a gracious, loving and good God we have! For God so loved the world, Mark, that He gave His Son Jesus to be our savior, that if anyone would believe on Him, they would be saved and have everlasting life! Mark, THIS SPEECH IS PROTECTED BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT.
Citizens, particularly Christians, take heed, scary people like Mark who want to silence their opposition are all around us, and some are running for public office and many are already in our courts deciding that some people's speech is not 'constitutional'. Some work at Google editing your posts and will not allow certain things to be seen, some work in the Main-Stream Media, and they edit the news to fit their own worldview. They're the same people who don't want any acknowledgment of God or Faith in public, but if you've ever been to Washington D.C. and seen the Bible verses all over the buildings there, you'll see that our founders were of a Christian persuasion, as was our citizenry. Mark, THIS SPEECH IS PROTECTED BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT.
The true faith of Jesus Christ is tolerant, loving and subservient to people in order to win them to God (not force them, as in some religions), but it is Men who distort the true faith and turn it into a curse and a byword.
2Co 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake.
Everyone in America has a choice in what they believe, I'm just trying to give people their best option for all eternity. Take it or leave it, but don't say I can't say it.
Yes, Mark, this speech is protected too, unless you know something we all don't?
By , at August 17, 2008 11:10 PM
This Is great. I've been In Menifee since 1997 and have watched It grow and also watched the problems get bigger. I've thought of getting out of here but I thought after we became a city we might be able to work together and make this a great place to live. I guess I was worng, If a real problem came up that effected most of us I can see now that we wouldn't be able to work It out. Every time I mention moving my teenage daughter goes carzy, she doesn't want to. All her friends are here. Tomorrow I'm going to have her read this page, I'll bet she changes her mind. For all of you that will say good-bye, I'll be out of here as soon as I can. I hope you can learn to work together, but I doubt It , to much hate!!
By , at August 18, 2008 12:36 AM
Jeff, your paranoia shines through. I never once said you didn't have a right to speak your mind, my argument was that a public setting isn't appropriate for any religious prayer. You are an example of everything wrong with Christianity today. You have let faith distort your ability to think, a trait I believe God would be ashamed of. He gave us a mind, but people like you refuse to use that mind. You and people like you are no different from extremists around the world. You can't argue any point other than through biblical references and misstatements on history. You have no knowledge of the origins of Christianity, so don't preach to me. You don't speak for Christians, and most Christians are not as simple minded as you. Stop embarrassing Christians and stop standing on a pulpit. Whenever politics and religion mix, the end result is always misery. Individualy they thrive and help people grow, but when close-minded people like you dive into politics, everyone suffers. I put my money and actions where my mouth is. I don't preach to anyone, but I will help my fellow man, because that is what Christ would want. Treat everyone the way he treated us. You and the rest of the judgemental extremists forget this. You expose what we all must be wary of. Religious extremists trying to infuse themselves into every facet of peoples' lives.
By , at August 18, 2008 8:16 AM
Well said Mark. S.O.M.
By , at August 19, 2008 3:50 PM
Mark, surely, wisdom will die with you.
By , at August 20, 2008 9:32 PM
Quote from Steve: "Denver gets the priviledge (sic) of doing this at the start of the council meeting because he earned earned that priviledge (sic) on election day."
Which is exactly why this family did not vote for him. Mr. Denver has a history of forcing his personal views into city/county matters. Prayer belongs in the church, in your home, in your personal surroundings - not to be injected onto others of different religions during a public government meeting. For shame that some of you believe for the sake of christianity, prayer should be part of the meetings. How about if my Muslim neighbor takes his 3 or 4 minutes to read from the Koran; or how about my Jewish friend reciting a passage from the Torah - would John Denver like that? I bet you there would be 10 times the amount of complaints here on this board from that meeting! I agree with the others who say religion does NOT belong in government business. Let Mr. Denver prayer elsewhere.
By , at August 21, 2008 1:03 AM
Personally, I believe what John Denver is doing by praying at the start of the meetings is disrespectful to members of other faiths (or non-faith). It's only a matter of time before a constituent notifies the ACLU or files a lawsuit on their own.
It has repeatedly been ruled in the courts that to pray before a public government meeting is "establishing a national religion". (4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, North Carolina)
Excerpt:
The three-judge panel ruled "that the practice of members of Town Council invoking names specifically associated with the Christian faith at Town Council meetings violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution."
This is just one of many that can be located in any law journal.
I would highly suggest the Menifee Council either willingly back off the prayers at their public meetings before the topic becomes a thorn in its side or they should seek the legal advice of their city attorney.
Why can't the city council just acknowledge a moment of 1 minute silence at the start of the meeting at which time John Denver can observe his prayer in his mind? Seems like a rational alternative that would not offend and more importantly, not bring on a lawsuit.
By , at August 21, 2008 1:27 AM
Jeff, your lack of class and Christian values shines through clearly with your statements.Plwease defer from refering to yourself as a Christian, because you are a Christian in name only. You don't live by Christian values and don't deserve the title.
By , at August 21, 2008 7:53 AM
I disagree with Steve's take on this situation. If John Denver is saying a prayer while acting in the capacity as an elected official on the Menifee City Council at a public meeting, then the entire council is indirectly endorsing the action and, as such, can be held liable.
It is ridiculous to justify the prayer just because the council didn't vote on it. Furthermore, by not participating in or acting to stop the prayer does not make the other council members any less liable.
By , at August 21, 2008 11:51 AM
That is why OUR Country is in such a mess now! So many fellow Americans (if you want to call them Americans) want prayer out of everyhting we do. If it wasn't for Prayer you wouldn't be able to express you opinon. God Bless America and God Bless Menifee!
By Brother Pete, at August 21, 2008 1:40 PM
That is why OUR Country is in such a mess now! So many fellow Americans (if you want to call them Americans) want prayer out of everyhting we do. If it wasn't for Prayer you wouldn't be able to express you opinon. God Bless America and God Bless Menifee!
By Brother Pete, at August 21, 2008 1:40 PM
Brother Pete, Learn you History. The U.S. isn't messed up due to a lack of God in our lives, it is messed up because simple minded folk like you reley on a diety for change rather than making change through your own sweat and blood. I am Christian, but God isn't going to fix the problems on earth. He gave us a brain, in hopes that we would use it. God would rather see us use the gift he gave us, rather than through blind devotion and fear, which is what you do. Don't blame the lack of God for our problems, blame yourself.
By , at August 21, 2008 2:07 PM
I express my opinion just fine without prayer, Brother Pete.
My opinion is that an elected official should not designate the faith for the City of Menifee. That is not his job.
You see, Brother Pete - I expressed my opinion without praying to any spiritual entity.
By , at August 21, 2008 6:51 PM
Since Jeff has injected his personal religious views to this blog and John Denver has polluted the council meetings with his personal religious beliefs, here's my share:
". . . In all parts of our globe, fanatics have cut each other's throats, publicly burnt each other, committed without a scruple and even as a duty, the greatest crimes, and shed torrents of blood. . . .
Savage and furious nations, perpetually at war, adore, under divers names, some God, conformable to their ideas, that is to say, cruel, carnivorous, selfish, blood-thirsty. We find, in all the religions, 'a God of armies,' a 'jealous God,' an 'avenging God,' a 'destroying God,' a 'God,' who is pleased with carnage, and whom his worshippers consider it a duty to serve. Lambs, bulls, children, men, and women, are sacrificed to him. Zealous servants of this barbarous God think themselves obliged even to offer up themselves as a sacrifice to him. Madmen may everywhere be seen, who, after meditating upon their terrible God, imagine that to please him they must inflict on themselves, the most exquisite torments. The gloomy ideas formed of the deity, far from consoling them, have every where disquieted their minds, and prejudiced follies destructive to happiness.
How could the human mind progress, while tormented with frightful phantoms, and guided by men, interested in perpetuating its ignorance and fears? Man has been forced to vegetate in his primitive stupidity: he has been taught stories about invisible powers upon whom his happiness was supposed to depend. Occupied solely by his fears, and by unintelligible reveries, he has always been at the mercy of priests, who have reserved to themselves the right of thinking for him, and of directing his actions."
– Baron d'Holbach, Common Sense, 1772
By , at August 21, 2008 7:03 PM
Comment #69
Sweeeeeeeet
By , at August 21, 2008 10:07 PM
Mark, (and anyone else who's reading this) I'm a Christian, and only because Jesus saw fit to save me, not because of anything I've done. I am an ambassador of Christ as is every other born-again believer, according to John 3:16.
The Bible is my standard, so I defer to the Word of God in matters great and small. I believe in objective truth, and Jesus said the Bible is truth in John 17:17, so I believe Him. You don't have a problem with me, you have a problem with Jesus and the Gospel, which was once for all delivered to the saints in Christ according to Jude 1:3. I'm trying to represent in words, (since that's all I have here) true Christianity. What you hate so much about me is the fact that my faith isn't what YOU think it should be, but then, Jesus wasn't what the Pharisees thought He should be either, so it goes back to verification of facts and evidence.
Basically, you don't know who you're talking to and accusing, yet you have attacked my character, my Constitutional rights, and my faith, which you have the 'right' to do in this country, but when we stand before God, you and I as well as every other person will give an account to Him for the way we lived our lives. To know this is to 'fear' or reverence God. I fear God, I'm not lying, as God is my witness.
I have to laugh when you tell me I don't know my Lord's 'true message'. How can I not know the one who sacrificed himself for me, a wretched sinner bound for hell for all eternity, since He has promised to reveal Himself to those who come to Him? (Revelation 3:20) No I know my Lord, and His message of Love and Grace for all mankind, and I will share it over and over again, even if the stones come falling on my head, like they did my brother Stephen in the book of Acts, 7:59. He was stoned by religious fascists!
I think I know who you are, Mark, and where you come from. I could be wrong, but you remind me of a religious group that masquerades as a Christian denomination; but they're arrogant in their faith, and harsh with their words, because they think their church is the only way and 'every other church is wrong' (but they won't tell you that unless you corner them on their lack of sound biblical doctrine, and it gets pretty ugly, too) and they don't know the Love of Christ because they don't know Him, or the way of the Spirit (Jude 1:10-19). They are bound up in laws and judgment and guilt, and they have added man's philosophy and the doctrines of demons to the Bible, and the Bible takes a back seat.
Their doctrine is false and damning because it promises what it cannot deliver: peace with God through man's own efforts. Or has Christ died for nothing? The blood of Christ alone washes our guilty sin away, and makes us clean and holy in His sight! Glory to God!
You can attack me, but you do so to your own hurt. You also lead others away from the Biblical truth, which is open and available in this country for everyone to read and verify for themselves, because we have freedom; and we have freedom because our Creator has given us freedom.
The whole point of public prayer is so that people will know that this nation honors God, and give praise, honor and glory to the only one who deserves it, our God through Jesus Christ our Lord. You can expect further decline the more you exclude the living God or try to replace Him with some idol or fantasy.
I am a disciple of my Teacher through discipline, a servant of my Master in servanthood, a son of my Father by adoption, and a subject of my King in my submission, who is Jesus Christ my Lord. Jesus has served me by taking my place in death, and I cannot deny my Lord.
He is the One God, and He is dishonored when man and his 'wisdom' is given glory for the blessings in our nation that only come from God as you have done. To give place to any other 'god' besides Him is idolatry.
I have been and will continue to intercede for our nation, and for you, and for our new city, not because I'm better than you, because I'm not; but because God is gracious and He has promised to hear the prayers of a humble heart before Him.
I've spent a lot of time here, I hope it bears some good fruit among you.
Love to you from Jesus Christ and from me, your servant,
Jeff
By , at August 22, 2008 9:27 PM
to the guy quoting Baron d'Holbach:
Respectfully disagree:
The basic premise is fatally flawed: It's not the belief in God that causes problems, it's the belief in man-centered gods, ideas, and ideologies.
Christianity is not man-centered in its actual form, it's Christ-centered; centered on the person of Jesus Christ and His teachings and actions revealed in the Bible, the Miraculous, historically-accurate, prophesy-filled, verifiable Word of the living God. All other world religions and philosophies are opposed to Christianity in some form or another because they are man-centered and not God-centered or Christ-centered as I said before: It cannot be rationally stated that all religions are basically the same.
The muslims who hate serve a 'god', but it's not the God of the Bible, they say allah has no son, and that clearly contradicts the Bible and their god tells them to kill people: Theirs is the kind of 'god' that causes the things that Baron d'Holbach is blaming on his generic reference to "God". This is logically inconsistent and in fact, false. There have been many so-called Christians that have done horrific things while professing to be Christians, but without going into a lot of Biblical references, Jesus said they're not necessarily Christians.
On the other hand, the vast majority of good and decent things in this world are the result of people who know they are accountable to a power higher than themselves. For example, we slow down on the freeway when we see a police car because we don't want to get caught speeding: we know we are accountable to our Government, our Boss, our families, friends, what have you. Thus, our sense of accountability governs our actions because we 'fear' or 'reverence' that authority enough to change what we want to do in favor of what will keep us out of trouble.
THE SANE PERSON ONLY BREAKS THE LAW WHEN HE THINKS HE WON'T GET CAUGHT.
Extend this to your argument: if there is no accountability to the omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent God of Creation revealed in the Bible, then what keeps people from acting any way they want when there is no one to see or stop them? The result is anarchy, which results in tyranny and dominance by the ones with the most power. We've seen this before, haven't we? We are beginning to see it now in our country in small increments, only because people no longer 'fear' or 'reverence' the God of the Bible.
Ever watch TV Land? Andy Griffith? That was no fantasy, it really used to be you could leave your keys in your car overnight, your doors unlocked and us kids could run around the town without worries about child predators and other evil things. The fear of God, the knowledge of God, the sense of the presence of authority kept people from doing wrong things, plain and simple. The more the sense of the presence of God is removed, the more dangerous our world becomes. Instead of God as the Governor of our lives and communities, we have to have other men governing us. This has historically been the downfall of nations throughout history because men are basically selfish, depraved people. We are all self-oriented by nature of the fall from grace, and we're constantly trying to cover our guilt with pride, or distract ourselves from the knowledge of it.
The suggestion that God should be removed is destructive and dangerous to a civilized society, and its origins are in the pit of Hell itself. Think of it this way, would you rather be accountable to a good, gracious, benevolent God who is revealed in the Bible, whose existence can be rationally and historically verified, or would you rather be accountable to a power-hungry politician whose only goal in life is to gain more power and money at any cost?
I know God is good, and has our best interests at heart. I choose Christ.
By , at August 22, 2008 10:50 PM
It is interesting that the cut and paste "Christians" fumble or overlap themselves in scripture. Please, refrain from repeating or restating your same slanted point of view. How about actually discussing the situation of my sect coming to request a 5 minute pre-meeting prayer....we will be there on December 5th the holiest of days. Praise be to the council and their sanctimonious goblidagook
By , at August 22, 2008 11:32 PM
By the way we [Those Who May Eat Ground Squirrel Meat If they Cross Our Paths] T.W.M.E.G.S.M.I.T.C.O.P. are completly opposed to any council memeber who does not account for the normal 12 minutes that is accustomed to our normal prayer time which shall include the throwing of hazel nuts towards twenty percent of the governing body that claims to be SERIOUS or at least some what of a serious govening entity , blah, blah, blah. S.O.M.
By , at August 22, 2008 11:54 PM
Jeff,
You are a blabber blogger! No you are misguided bible blabber blooger, and right on to the right on Mark. Jeff get some blog therapy!
By , at August 23, 2008 1:21 AM
Jeff, you have the nerve to insult other religions when you and your insane devotion is flawed. You fail to use God's greatest gift, your brain. And if you are refering to Catholicism as a fake religion, keep this in mind. When the bible refers to "Christians", they are refering to Catholicism, not your new version of Christianity. You make yourself sound like an extremesit, no differnt than the Muslims who bastardize the true meaning of faith. I can look back on my life and be proud that I followed the word of God,in action, not just words. You take the bible literally when it is meant to be interpreted, that is why God gave you a brain. Blind devotion is blind, for you don't truly understand the word. Quoting the bible means nothing. They are words, no more. Lessons to be learned, not followed like a slave. Action speaks louder than words, so when you are judgmental toward others, calling their religions false, passing judgment on those who don't believe what you believe, you have misinterpreted the true meaning of God. You lack knowledge on the Constitution, you lack knowledge on the history of your religion, so don't claim to be a spokesperson for God. You are a spokesman for your particular Christian belief, not Christianity. If you want a country controlled by religion, move to the Middle East. Leave our nation for those who understand the true meaning of faith and love, understand the meaning of our forefathers, and understand the true meaning of what it means to be a Christian.
By , at August 23, 2008 10:17 AM
Jeff, Jeff, Jeff,
I too enjoy reading the bible. It is one of my favorite pieces of fiction. Maybe you should become a literature professor so you can delve into the fantastic literary qualities of a book that has captivated so much controversy and hypocritical and homophobic followers.
How about opening the city council meetings with a variety of "scripture". Let's include the "versus" from the tales of The Divinci Code and the Harry Potter series?
Oh, you don't like that..well if you don't want those pieces of fiction included in our city council's meetings than OUR CITY COUNCIL MEETINGS SHOULDN'T involve reciting quotes from YOUR favorite piece of fiction either.
I agree with Mark--keep the religion out of public government and we may all save ourselves a huge economic loss in the form of lawsuits that our city will not, nor should not, win.
By , at August 23, 2008 10:29 AM
Jeff - You go guy I'd love to meet you. You are very loving in your comments and right on. Thank God there are places we can voice our thoughts still in this contry. I grew up knowing in the last days the USA isn't going to be a force in the end times....It's becoming so clear now that we will be distroyed by ourselves.
By , at August 24, 2008 1:39 PM
Jeff and Linda, you both sound as though you have "issues". You are no different than some of the other doomsday cults around the world. The end of the world will come one day because we put our faith in a fictional God. A myth to make the weak feel better about death. Live your life, make good choices, and love one another, because this is it. No heaven, hell, or anything else. Just blackness. The world was around 2 million years before you were born, and it will be here after you die. Sad truth for some, enlightening moment for others.
By , at August 24, 2008 3:52 PM
Dear Anonymous, You know for a fact the world is 2 million years old you were there I presume. Just a thought - What if you are wrong & there really is a Hell & Heaven? Have you given that any thought? Just because you think one way dosn't make it so. I Know you're going to say same for you. I'd rather error on the safe side not the other. I have nothing to lose for my beliefs what if you do?
By , at August 24, 2008 5:43 PM
BLAH BLAH BLAH, enough already!! This post is getting old. No prayer at City Coucil meetings. Simple as that. Take a moment of silence if you need something. Or just get down to business. This isn't the Social Hour.
By Holly, at August 24, 2008 10:19 PM
Linda, there is no safe side, just a figment of your imagination. Use your head, don't be a slave to a myth. Religion is a way to control weak people's minds and it seems to work well. At the end of the day I will live my life to the fullest and die, knowing I lived a good life. You will die and be dissapointed. So Sad.
By , at August 25, 2008 7:41 AM
I wish Mr. Denver would comment on his actions on this post!I wonder what he would have to say for himself after reading all of the comments...
By , at August 25, 2008 8:47 AM
I am glad to see a prayer given at my city council meetings. Tradition means something. Change for the sake of change? No thanks.
Our traditions are what has made us strong. We have saved people in diverse places throughout the world because our traditions tell us that this is right and good. This truly is a great nation. It is great BECAUSE of our founding documents and values, NOT in spite of them.
There is nothing written regarding the separation church and state except that the government may not establish our country's religion.
I am a patriot and a Christian. These are not mutually exclusive words.
If prefer not to have a prayer then at least allow others who do to thank our maker for our freedom.
Thank you Jeff for your words. But, remember about throwing pearls before swine. It's a metaphor, people. I'm not calling people pigs.
Your neighbor...
By , at August 25, 2008 4:14 PM
I am glad to see a prayer given at my city council meetings. Tradition means something. Change for the sake of change? No thanks.
Our traditions are what has made us strong. We have saved people in diverse places throughout the world because our traditions tell us that this is right and good. This truly is a great nation. It is great BECAUSE of our founding documents and values, NOT in spite of them.
There is nothing written regarding the separation church and state except that the government may not establish our country's religion.
I am a patriot and a Christian. These are not mutually exclusive words.
If prefer not to have a prayer then at least allow others who do to thank our maker for our freedom.
Thank you Jeff for your words. But, remember about throwing pearls before swine. It's a metaphor, people. I'm not calling people pigs.
Your neighbor...
By , at August 25, 2008 4:14 PM
I am glad to see a prayer given at my city council meetings. Tradition means something. Change for the sake of change? No thanks.
Our traditions are what has made us strong. We have saved people in diverse places throughout the world because our traditions tell us that this is right and good. This truly is a great nation. It is great BECAUSE of our founding documents and values, NOT in spite of them.
There is nothing writ